what is the thesis of pretty like a white boy

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Who do you think you are? ~ An essay on identity

Who are you, really? Are you your mother’s child? Do you belong to your home country? What do you say when someone asks you, ‘tell me a bit about yourself’? I never know how to answer these questions, and if you’re not sure either, maybe we can try to find some answers.

Drew Hayden Taylor is a playwright who comes from an Ojibway mother who raised him, and a white father he didn’t know growing up. Taylor lived on a reserve and identifies as Native, although he has the physical characteristics of a white guy: light brown hair, pale skin, and blue eyes. In his personal essay entitled “Pretty Like a White Boy: The Adventures of a Blue Eyed Ojibway” he talks about the struggles he had fitting in when he was young on the reserve, and throughout his life. Even though he was raised in an Ojibway community, people didn’t listen when Taylor told them he was Native. “‘You don’t look indian?’ You’re not indian, are you?’ ‘Really?!’ I got questions like that from both white and Native people, for a while I debated having my status card tattooed on my forehead.” Humans are stubborn and judgemental beings. If we don’t see it, we don’t believe it. We tend to label people before getting to know them and their story, and this was Drew Hayden Taylor’s experience. He himself might not have had personal identity issues — he knew he was native — but others had issues with him. This brings forward the question: who defines us and our identity? Ourselves or the people around us?

What defines a person’s identity? Is it their physical characteristics — race, gender or age — or is it more so defined by their character and personality? Or is it something different entirely: their background, socioeconomic status or sexuality? Where they come from, their DNA? I think that identity is not one, but a combination of many of these qualities. Identity is affected by these objective characteristics, but is also very personal and subjective. We each define our own identity.

As a white, cisgender female with a Canadian citizenship, I haven’t struggled much with my identity. And because of this, my identity never seemed to be important to me. On the other hand, for some people it is a major issue. Chimamanda Adichie’s novel Americanah is full of themes about identity and its meaning. The protagonist, Ifemelu, is a woman who grows up in Nigeria but moves to America for a better education and life. Adichie deals with how identity, in all its forms, is such a huge part of fitting into society, and when you move to a different country, your identity is affected.

Identity is partly how you see yourself, but also how others see you. “Native” people were only given that title once Europeans discovered them. If you were brown-eyed and had never seen anyone who wasn’t, being brown-eyed wouldn’t be something that came to mind when asked about your physical characteristics — people don’t describe themselves as “two-footed”. In Americanah , Ifemelu experiences this exactly. In Nigeria, in nearly a fully-black society, she didn’t see herself as black. When she moves to America, she is given the label “black” when she becomes part of its race-obsessed society. Now, as a “black” woman, she faces discrimination and inequalities she had never experienced before. When Ifemelu was in Nigeria, her blackness was not a part of her personal identity. She moved to America, and became a minority and an immigrant. Your identity changes when your surroundings do.

Ifemelu tries to hide her true identity after she realizes it has a negative impact on her position in society. She decides to change and speak with an American accent in an effort to gain respect. She succeeds, but after some time realizes that she didn’t want to be portraying a false version of herself. She dropped the fake accent, and embraced her Nigerian voice: “This was truly her; this was the voice with which she would speak if she were woken up from a deep sleep during an earthquake.”

In the novel Indian Horse by Richard Wagamese, Saul Indian Horse has his identity stripped from him, as a young child at a residential school as well as throughout his life. He is robbed of physical characteristics that are meaningful to him: they cut his hair and try to scrub his skin of brownness. They take him away from his family, his culture, and his language and force him into catholicism. They steal his youth and innocence with the horrifying experiences he is obliged to endure. Even as a teenager on the hockey rink, Saul can’t be himself. The white society he is living in names him the “Savage Indian”, and he has no choice but to play into that role. His identity becomes something he can no longer reclaim. This, in effect, causes him deep inner turmoil for the rest of his life. We need to learn from Saul, and the thousands of other Native people who suffered, to appreciate how sacred and precious an identity is.

Today, with so much immigration in comparison to a century or two ago, “where you are from” is becoming a harder question to answer. And is it even an appropriate question to ask? A huge part of our identity is where we come from, and it has been important for a long time from people of many different backgrounds. Galia Sabar, an anthropologist who works with refugees, talks on CBC Radio about her experience with meeting new people in Kenya. “…Every time I met a Kenyan — young and old, men and women — they asked me three questions. What’s your name? Does your name have a meaning, or who do you belong to? And the other question was: which tribe are you from?” When searching for someone’s identity, a key piece of information is where you are from. Candy Palmater, a Native interviewer, also brings up the importance of where someone is from in her interview with Joseph Boyden: “When you go to a powow, […] when you meet someone new, it’s always a question of ‘who are you? Who are you people, and where are you from?’”

Joseph Boyden is a successful fiction writer who writes from a native point of view. In his interview on CBC with Candy Palmater, he identified as “a white kid from Willowdale with Native roots.” He also has been far from consistent when telling the media where exactly his Native roots trace back to. This is why so many people, Native and non-Native, aren’t comfortable with Joseph Boyden identifying as Native when he doesn’t know who his ancestors are, or specifically what tribe he comes from. He has accepted awards meant for Native writers, but people argue that he isn’t really Native.

When the native experience has been terribly misrepresented time and time again in the media for over a century, is it still okay for another white guy to portray his idea of the Native experience? Is it okay for someone who has not suffered oppression because of their skin colour to write from the perspective of a Native person? I certainly don’t know the answers to these questions, and even if I did, I’d still feel that they are not my questions to answer.

Gender identity and sexuality are aspects of a person’s identity that can only be defined by the person. As a society, we have become more open to gender fluidity or neutrality: people can identify as whatever gender feels right, even if it does not match their biological sex. Maybe in the future we’ll be more open to the notion that to identify as part of a certain culture, you won’t have to pass a DNA test. I don’t know what the societal rules will be, or what they should be — but what do you think?

I realize now that personal identity is such an important part of how we socially interact. Your identity helps you to fit in, and feel like you belong somewhere. Your identity can be something you are very proud of. A person’s identity is not simply one aspect of their character, their history, or a certain physical characteristic. Identity is so crucial because it highlights our diversity as a people, and without our diversity, we are no longer a people — we are simply a person.

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• / Literature

Stereotypes in Drew Hayden Taylor',s: Pretty like a White Boy

By: Natalie John   •  Essay  •  907 Words  •  November 8, 2014  •  7,161 Views

Oxford’s dictionary defines stereotypes as a “widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing” (Sterotype , n.d.). In the essay written by Drew Hayden Taylor, titled Pretty Like a White Boy: The Adventures of a Blue Eyed Ojibway, stereotypes play a significant role. This essay provides many examples of stereotypes and their effects on people. In the essay, we see Taylor use stereotypes in response to the stereotypes used against him, but ultimately these stereotypes don’t help him fit in.

The stereotypes used against Taylor in this essay have a significant effect on him, consciously and unconsciously. Throughout his life, Taylor was exposed to stereotypes because of the way he looked. For example, he mentions both white and native people asking him whether he’s native, and then doubting him. “My pinkness is constantly being pointed out to me over and over again. “You don’t look Indian?” “You’re not Indian, are you?” “Really?!?”” (Taylor, 1962). These people who are doubting him, are doing so because, they have an image in their mind of what a stereotypical Native person would look like. They are surprised that people of aboriginal descent don’t all look one way. To constantly be questioned and challenged about your heritage can be tiring. The incident that seemed to have affected him the most though was the incident with the little girl who claimed he was not aboriginal because he didn’t want to drink tea, since in her mind all natives did (Taylor, 1962). As ridiculous as that claim is, that little girl truly believed it, and since Taylor already didn’t look like what she thought a native man would , she justified or proved that he wasn’t native with another stereotype. The fact that Taylor was in a hurry didn’t matter, because in her eyes a native person always drinks tea (Taylor, 1962). As  Taylor even mentions himself at the  beginning of the essay that he is not the stereotypical native person when he says “Once you get past the aforementeded eyes, the fair skin, light brown hair, and noticeable lack of cheekbones, therein lies the heart and spirt of an Ojibway storyteller” (Taylor, 1962). He describes the characteristics of himself that doesn’t add up those of the characteristics of an typical Ojibway storyteller, even though that is what he identifies himself as.

In response to the stereotypes used against him, Taylor in result uses them himself.  For example he says “White people – food and big tits.” (Taylor, 1962). This is a clear example of negative stereotypes he used against white people, but he also used positive stereotypes when talking about his native heritage. Positive stereotypes are stereotypes that highlight positive qualities or seem complimentary (McLeod, 2008).  For example, when talking about natives he said  “Native people have this wonderful respect and love for the land “ (Taylor, 1962). Which is the complete opposite of how he stereotyped caucasions. He stereotyped caucasions as very superficial with good food, in contrast to how he stereotyped aborginals who have love for the land. This could partly be because of how and who he was raised by. Since he wasn’t raised by his father (who was causcasion) he wasn’t exposed to that culture. On the other hand, he was raised raised by an Ojibway woman and grew up on the reserve around other Objibway people. He has a better understanding of what it means to be an Objibway man so his stereotypes about them are more detailed and “positive”. He does not really know his father so subconsciously since his father is a white man, he could have a more negative stereotypes about them.

Who is Indigenous enough?

This article was published more than 2 years ago. Some information may no longer be current.

Protesters take part in a march from the Ontario provincial legislature, after the remains of 215 children were found on the grounds of the Kamloops Indian Residential School, in Toronto, on June 6, 2021. CHRIS HELGREN/Reuters

“To thine own self be true…”

Nothing like starting off National Aboriginal Day, or whatever they call it these days, with a Shakespeare quote. Recently though, it seems apt. Other than the continued and increasingly obscene travesties of the residential school system, conversation around the water cooler (an ironic saying in our community since so much of our water is undrinkable) frequently focuses on identity. Who is who? And who is Indigenous enough? And who can accuse who of what?

Joseph Boyden and Michelle Latimer aside, the issue continuously arises in many different forms. Publicly, the discussion usually centres on people in the arts. Most recently it has spread to Queen’s University, where an anonymous report has called into question the Indigenous identity of several of its faculty and staff.

It is a testy subject, understandably. Few things are as personal and important as identity. Just recently, the government has offered to financially assist First Nation people who want to reclaim the Indigenous names that were taken away from them when they entered residential school. The government taketh and the government giveth back.

Several decades ago I dealt with identity issues in my own life and pretty much turned it into a career. I wrote an essay, still fairly popular, called Pretty Like a White Boy, which explored my journey from the reserve to life in Toronto as a – and this is the new term being bandied about – white passing Indigenous man. That’s where I coined my classic and now ancient joke: I’m half Ojibway and half Caucasian, that makes me an Occasion. Either a special occasion or a memorable occasion. Based on that particular essay, I went on to write others about the trials and tribulations of identity, ending up with the publication of a book exploring the topic, Funny, You Don’t Look Like One.

For a while I thought I’d write my own version of the classic John Howard Griffin book Black Like Me, except it would be called White Passing Like Me, where I would explore the wonders and privileges of settler life. Only problem is I’m not very knowledgeable about the marvels of low fat Greek yogurt or stock car races. But even today it’s still a topic of great emotion in the community in general.

On Twitter, I often find some Indigenous people rallying for several reasons against white-passing First Nation people. Criticisms about them not being willing to acknowledge their privilege is common. Granted, there is an argument there. I know that when I enter a department store, I don’t have to worry about store security following me around, positive that I plan to steal something. My blue eyes are a shield. (But I can promise you that if I do steal something, I will do it as a white person.) I also know that if I am stopped by the police, I have little fear something tragic will happen as a result of my status card. Unless possibly they find it.

Frequently when somebody is angry with me, pissed off at something I’ve written, has had a few drinks too many, or just has too much attitude, the first thing they will say to me is “You’re not Indian. You just think you are,” or some variation of that clever argument. Yet my credentials are better than most. I may be biracial but essentially I’m unicultural. I grew up on my reserve with just my Anishawbe-speaking mother before I ventured off to college. If you listen closely, I have a slight accent. My breath smells of sweetgrass, and corn soup runs through my blood. At night when I sleep, I dream of nothing but North of 60 episodes.

Also, I think neo-Nazis don’t really care about the colour of a person’s hair or eyes. They will beat up dark and not-so-dark Indigenous people, regardless of their appearance. Oddly, they’re kind of democratic that way.

This identity issue has been an ongoing topic in the community and will probably be so for a long time to come. Part of me is happy these arguments are happening. The days of Grey Owl are far behind us. Indigenous heritage is something definitely worth fighting for, but not, I also think, at the expense of creating our own casualties due to friendly fire. I sometimes wonder how productive these accusations really are.

I am tired. In the end, I just keep my head down and do my work. Answers to questions of identity are, at best, complicated. I know who I am.

Drew Hayden Taylor is an Anishnawbe playwright and humorist.

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Pretty Like a White Boy: Experience as a Caucasian-Ojibway Man in Canada

A second form of racism Taylor encounters is institutional racism, which enforces the status quo through private and government organizations, which include the media, social services, and workplaces. "Examples of institutional racism include policies and practices that...place undue value on selective educational experiences or qualifications in establishing promotion criteria in jobs and schools" (Wh...

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Transcript: Observations from a Blue-Eyed Ojibway | Jul 11, 2016

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her thirties, with shoulder-length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a cream blazer over a black shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine."

Then, it changes to "Observations from a blue-eyed Ojibway."

Nam says HUMOUR CAN GO PLACES, SAY THINGS

THAT ARE OTHERWISE OFTEN BEYOND

AUTHOR AND PLAYWRIGHT DREW

HAYDEN TAYLOR DOES JUST THAT IN

HIS MOST RECENT COLLECTION OF

THE BEST OF, FUNNY, YOU

DON'T LOOK LIKE ONE,

EXPLORES THE CONTOURS OF BEING

MIXED-RACE, OF INTERRACIAL

RELATIONSHIPS, AND THE

COMPLEXITY OF FEELING CAUGHT

BETWEEN TWO WORLDS.

DREW HAYDEN TAYLOR JOINS US NOW.

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of Drew posing outside a teepee.

Drew is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair. He's wearing a gray shirt with a native design.

Nam says WELCOME.

Drew says BUENOS DIAS, COMO ESTAS.

Nam says WE'RE ALREADY LAUGHING.

SO, IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY

INTERESTING INTERVIEW.

WE'RE GONNA SPEND THE NEXT HALF

HOUR TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK,

BUT WHY DID YOU FEEL AT THIS

POINT IN YOUR CAREER TO RELEASE

A COLLECTION OF YOUR ESSAYS?

The caption changes to "Drew Hayden Taylor. Author 'The best of funny, you don't look like one.'"

Then, it changes again to "Greatest hits."

Drew says WELL, THIS BOOK IS A COLLECTION

OF FOUR EARLIER VOLUMES OF

FUNNY, YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE ONE

AND I WROTE THESE AT A TIME WHEN

THE EXPLORATION OF VARIOUS

NATIVE TOPICS AND VARIOUS

NATIVES ISSUES WAS COMING TO THE

AND ONE OF THEM BEING THE

CONCEPT OF IDENTITY.

AND HAVING GROWN UP ON THE

RESERVE LOOKING THE WAY I DO,

AND THEN COMING INTO THE CITY

WHERE THE DOMINANT POPULATION

HAD--HAS A PERCEPTION OF WHAT

NATIVE PEOPLE LOOK AND ACT LIKE,

AND THE FACT THAT I DIDN'T

BELONG--I DIDN'T FIT INTO THAT

PERCEPTION, IT ALLOWED ME THE

UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY BACK THEN IN

THE '90S AND EARLY 2000S TO

WRITE ABOUT IDENTITY AND THE

PERCEPTION OF NATIVE PEOPLE, POP

CULTURE, ALL THESE DIFFERENT

AND IT WAS A REALLY BIZARRE

EXPERIENCE.

THE VERY FIRST ONE I REALLY,

REALLY TACKLED WAS CALLED

"PRETTY LIKE A WHITE BOY."

BECAUSE A WHOLE SERIES OF

ISSUES--OKA HAD JUST HAPPENED

AND--PEOPLE WERE TALKING

ABOUT NATIVE PEOPLE BUT

OFTENTIMES NOT IN THE MOST

POSITIVE WAY AND IN THE MOST

HUMOROUS WAY.

SO, I JUST WENT HOME ONE NIGHT

AFTER AN ENCOUNTER WITH A TAXI

DRIVER; I SAT AT MY COMPUTER;

AND I DID SOMETHING I VERY

I NEVER WRITE AT NIGHT BECAUSE

MY MIND GETS GOING AND GOING AND

GOING AND IT GETS TOUGH FOR ME

TO SLEEP, BUT I HAD ALL THESE

THINGS IN MY HEAD.

I SAT DOWN; I JUST--IF YOU'LL

PARDON THE EXPRESSION--VOMITED

OUT 54 LINES OF ANNOYANCE,

ANGER, OBSERVATION INTO ONE

I REMEMBER ON MY COMPUTER AT

THAT TIME, ONE PAGE WAS 54

AND I WOULD START IT, ...RANT.

END IT, RANT...

NO STRUCTURE, WHATEVER.

WENT TO BED, GOT UP THE NEXT

MORNING, READ IT OVER AND

THOUGHT, "THERE'S ACTUALLY

SOMETHING HERE.

IT HAS NO STRUCTURE, NEEDS TO BE

PUT TOGETHER, AND FILLED IN."

AND I ENDED UP SPENDING ABOUT A

WEEK WORKING ON IT, AND IT ENDED

UP BEING "PRETTY LIKE A WHITE

BOY" WHICH IS ONE OF THE THINGS

I'M MOST KNOWN FOR

20 YEARS LATER.

IT'S BEEN ANTHOLOGIZED TO DEATH;

IT'S TAUGHT IN THE HIGH SCHOOLS

AND UNIVERSITIES BECAUSE IT'S AN

EXPLORATION OF IDENTITY, RIGHT?

MAINLY MY STANDARD JOKE BEING,

"I'M HALF OJIBWAY, HALF

CAUCASIAN, SO TECHNICALLY THAT

MAKES ME AN 'OCCASION'."

OR AS I LIKE TO SAY, "SPECIAL

OCCASION, IF NOT A MEMORABLE

WE'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT THAT

ESSAY IN A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE I

ALSO CAN IDENTITY, AS YOU CAN

Nam says BUT DURING THE TIME THAT YOU

STARTED WRITING THE ESSAYS AND

NOW, HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED OR HOW

LITTLE HAS CHANGED BETWEEN

CANADA AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLES,

THE RELATIONSHIP?

Drew says I THINK THERE'S--I THINK THERE'S

MUCH MORE OF A BROADER

ACCEPTANCE OF THE--THE MANY

DIFFERENT FACETS OF THE NATIVE

I REMEMBER BACK THEN IN THE

'90S, THEY WERE DOING A

PRODUCTION OF--I THINK IT WAS

THE ECSTASY OF RITA JOE

YORK UNIVERSITY.

AND I REMEMBER I WENT UP TO GIVE

A LECTURE, AND A LOT OF THE

ACTORS UP THERE, SOME OF THEM

NATIVE ACTORS, WERE COMMENTING

THAT THE DIRECTOR ALL WANTED

THEM TO DYE THEIR HAIR BLACK.

AND I JUST REMEMBER BEING VERY,

VERY SURPRISED.

AND I SORT WALKED IN AND THE

DIRECTOR WAS IN MY LECTURE.

AND I STARTED TALKING ABOUT

THE--THE MULTIFACETED DIMENSION

OF THE ABORIGINAL COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK--I WAS TOLD

AFTERWARDS THAT HE SORT OF

DROPPED THAT REQUEST.

SO, THERE HAS BEEN PROGRESS ON

ONE LEVEL, BUT THERE IS STILL

THIS ANNOYING LITTLE BIT

OF--I'LL SAY IGNORANCE ON--ON A

NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF

NATIVE CULTURE.

SO, WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS

WHERE I APPROACH POLITICALLY

VOLATILE TOPICS IN A HUMOROUS

AND IN SOME CASES

TONGUE-IN-CHEEK WAY, I THINK IT

SORT OF HELPS BUILD THAT BRIDGE

BETWEEN ISSUES THAT ARE

IMPORTANT TO US AND ISSUES THAT

THE DOMINANT CULTURE SHOULD BE

FAMILIAR WITH.

Nam says WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE BIGGEST

MISCONCEPTION THAT PEOPLE HAVE

ABOUT INDIGENOUS CULTURE?

Drew says OH, THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM.

ONE IS THE FACT THAT--IT'S

INTERESTING.

IT'S A--IT'S A CONTRADICTORY

PERCEPTION.

ONE IS THAT THERE'S SO MUCH

GOVERNMENT MONEY BEING PUMPED

INTO NATIVE COMMUNITIES ALL THE

THAT WE'RE ALL RICH; WE'RE ALL

WEALTHY; WE DON'T PAY INCOME

TAX; ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS.

YET, ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE'S

THIS OTHER PERCEPTION THAT WE'RE

ALL POVERTY STRICKEN AND, YOU

KNOW, LIVING TRAGIC EXISTENCES.

AND BOTH ARE INCREDIBLY

I LIVE ON MY RESERVE; I PAY

INCOME TAX.

A VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE PEOPLE

IN TODAY'S SOCIETY BOTH ON AND

OFF THE RESERVE PAY INCOME TAX.

AND THERE ARE--WHAT IS THERE?

330 NATIVE COMMUNITIES ACROSS

CANADA--AN ODD NUMBER LIKE

THAT--AND I GET ASKED ABOUT

THIS, AND I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT

YOU TAKE 330 RANDOM SMALL TOWNS

ALL ACROSS CANADA, JUST PICK

THEM OUT, AND YOU'LL RUN A

SPECTRUM FROM POVERTY STRICKEN

TO MIDDLE CLASS AND WELL OFF.

AND IT'S THE SAME WITH NATIVE

COMMUNITIES.

MY RESERVE IS FAIRLY MIDDLE

SOME RESERVES ARE POVERTY

AND SO, IT'S SORT OF EDUCATING

THE PUBLIC THAT THERE'S AGAIN

THAT BROAD SPECTRUM.

Nam says AND WHO SHOULD EDUCATE?

DO YOU THINK IT'S THE MEDIA?

LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHY IS THIS...

Drew says OH, EVERYBODY.

EVERYBODY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR

Nam says MM HMM.

Drew says I DO MY BIT THROUGH WRITING,

MEDIA DOES IT BIT--DOES ITS BIT.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN THE STREET

TELLING STORIES OR TALKING ABOUT

NATIVE PEOPLE SHOULD DO THEIR BIT.

EDUCATION IS A RESPONSIBILITY OF

EVERYBODY, NOT JUST A HANDFUL.

Nam says AND DURING--LOOKING BACK IN THE

BOOK, ARE ANY TOPICS THAT

YOU'VE--HAD A COMPLETE 180 ON,

THAT YOU THINK YOU APPROACH

DIFFERENTLY?

The caption changes to "Aboriginal like me."

Drew says OH, THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

I'VE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

I THINK THERE'S MORE INTERESTING

TOPICS THAT HAVE COME UP THAT

NEED TO BE EXPLORED.

WHETHER I'VE DONE A 180 ON SOME

OF THEM, I'M NOT SURE.

THERE'S COMPLICATED STUFF THAT

I--I HAVE TROUBLE DEALING WITH

THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY

PERSPECTIVE IS.

I ENVY PEOPLE WHO--WHO KNOW

WHERE THEY STAND IMMEDIATELY.

LIKE A GOOD EXAMPLE IS WHAT'S

HAPPENING--I THINK IN--I THINK

IT'S KAHNAWAKE WHERE THEY'RE

GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS OF

KICKING NON-NATIVE PEOPLE OFF

THE RESERVE WHO HAVE MARRIED

NATIVE PEOPLE.

AND THEY'RE SAYING, "IT'S OUR

RIGHT TO DO THIS; YOU CAN KICK

THEM OFF," ALL THAT SORT OF

AND IT'S BECOME A DIVISIVE

AND I CAN SEE BOTH SIDES.

AND I AM SITTING THERE GOING, "I

CAN SEE BOTH SIDES."

I WANT TO BE ALL WELCOMING

'CAUSE THERE'S--A LOT OF MY

RELATIVES HAVE MARRIED

NON-NATIVE PEOPLE, AND THEY'VE

BEEN WELCOMED INTO THE

BUT ALSO I CAN SEE THE COMMUNITY

WANTING TO SORT OF MAINTAIN

THEIR CULTURE; THEIR STANDARD.

SO, IT'S--THERE ARE TOPICS THAT

ARE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT

TO--SORT OF FOR ME TO SAY, "THIS

IS RIGHT; THIS IS WRONG."

AND AS WE GET--YOU KNOW, TIME

PROGRESSES, NEW ISSUES ARE

STARTING TO ASSERT THEMSELVES.

RIGHT NOW, ONE OF THE

INTERESTING THINGS THAT'S COME

UP IS THE CONCEPT OF--HAVE YOU

EVER HEARD OF THE TERM "SKIRT

Nam says NO.

Drew says IN A LOT OF TRADITIONAL

CEREMONIES, ESPECIALLY FOR

WOMEN, THERE'S A--THERE'S...A

WAY YOU SHOULD DRESS.

YOU SHOULD WEAR LONG SKIRTS,

ANKLE LENGTH, AND HAVE A--JUST

A--YOU KNOW, IT'S A PROTOCOLS.

AND IN SOME SITUATIONS, SOME

WOMEN SHOW UP IN SHORTS, IN

JEANS, WHATEVER, AND SOME OF THE

ELDERS HAVE--AS THE TITLE

SUGGESTS, "SKIRT SHAMING."

THEM--HAVE CHASTISED THEM FOR

DRESSING INAPPROPRIATELY, HAVE

NOT ALLOWED THEM TO PARTICIPATE,

HAVE EXCLUDED THEM, HAVE

PUBLICLY EMBARRASSED THEM IN

THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT WEARING THE

PROPER ATTIRE.

AND I THINK--THAT'S AN ARTICLE

I'M WORKING ON RIGHT NOW.

Nam says THAT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING

SO, I WANNA TALK ABOUT YOUR

ESSAY THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT

BEFORE, AND THEN I WANNA READ AN

EXCERPT FROM IT.

DREW SAYS OK.

Nam says AND YOU WRITE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Pretty like a white boy." The quote reads "Yes, I'm afraid it's true. The author happens to be a card-carrying Indian. Once you get past the aforementioned eyes, the fair skin, the light brown hair and noticeable lack of cheek bones, there lies the heart and spirit of an Ojibway storyteller. 'Honest Injun,' or as the more politically correct term may be, 'honest Aboriginal.'"

Quoted from Drew Hayden Taylor, "The best of funny, you don't look like one" (2016).

Nam says HOW MANY TIMES IN YOUR LIFE

WOULD YOU SAY YOU'VE BEEN TOLD

THAT YOU DON'T LOOK ABORIGINAL?

Drew says OH MY GOD, I JUST CAN'T GET INTO IT.

EVEN AMONGST NATIVE PEOPLE.

Drew says I WAS AT A--I WAS AT A WRITING

WORKSHOP IN WINNIPEG.

AND THERE WERE THREE NATIVE

AUTHORS THERE.

THERE WAS ME THE PLAYWRIGHT;

THERE WAS A LOCAL POET; AND A

TELEVISION WRITER.

AND WE ALL GOT UP, AND WE DID

OUR LECTURES, AND THEN WE ALL

WENT TO THREE TABLES, AND WE

ROTATED WHERE WE DID SPECIFIC

DISCUSSIONS OF OUR WORK AND THEN

OPENED UP FOR QUESTIONS.

AND I REMEMBER I WAS AT THIS ONE

TABLE, AND I WAS TALKING, AND

THERE WAS THIS COUPLE AT THE END

OF THE TABLE--NATIVE COUPLE--AND

THEY WERE SITTING SIDE BY SIDE,

AND THEY WERE WHISPERING TO EACH

AND I KEPT TALKING THEN I OPENED

IT UP FOR QUESTION.

AND THE MAN PUT HIS HAND UP AND

SAID, "SORRY, I HAVE A--MY

QUESTION IS:

YOU SAID YOU WERE NATIVE?"

AND I WENT, "YES."

"AND THAT YOU LIVE ON A

"AND THAT YOU HAVE A STATUS

"CAN I SEE IT?"

[NAM LAUGHS]

Drew says SO, I TOOK OUT MY STATUS CARD; I

PASSED IT TO HIM.

HE AND HIS PARTNER ARE LOOKING

AT IT AND THEY HAND IT BACK, AND

THEY SAID, "YOU KNOW, WE WERE

TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT.

WE THOUGHT MAYBE IT WAS ONE OF

THESE RESERVE ADOPTION THINGS

WHERE YOU'RE SOME WHITE PERSON

ADOPTED BY A NATIVE FAMILY OR

SOMETHING."

Nam says BY ANGELINA JOLIE.

Drew says THERE YOU GO.

Nam says OR MADONNA.

Drew says OR MADONNA.

Nam says OK, I'M A PERSON WHO'S

MIXED-RACE, WHEN I GO BACK HOME,

EVERYONE'S ALWAYS TELLING ME

WHAT I'M NOT.

Drew says YEAH.

Nam says THEY SAID I'M JAMAICAN; THEY SAY

I'M MZUNGU.

MZUNGU IS LIKE THE N WORD, BUT

IT MEANS "WHITE."

AND THE WAY THEY SAY IT, IT'S

LIKE--THEY OBVIOUSLY KNOW THAT

YOU'RE NOT WHITE.

Drew says IN OJIBWAY IT'S "ZHAAGNAASH."

IT MEANS "WHITE PEOPLE."

Nam says YEAH SO, THEY'LL SAY EVERYTHING

THAT I AM NOT.

AND THEY TELL ME--AND IF I SAY,

"I'M AFRICAN; I'M UGANDAN."

THEY'RE LIKE, "NO, YOU'RE NOT."

DO YOU EVER GET INSULTED BY THAT?

Drew says NO, NOT ANYMORE.

LIKE, I'VE REACHED A CERTAIN

POINT IN MY CAREER WHERE MOST

PEOPLE KNOW ME, KNOW MY WORK,

AND KNOW THAT I SPECIFICALLY

DEAL IN NATIVE ISSUES.

OCCASIONALLY, WHEN SOMEBODY'S

ANGRY WITH ME OR UPSET OR

WHATEVER, THEY OFTEN SAY,

"YOU'RE NOT NATIVE; YOU'RE NOT

BUT IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW--AS I

SAID, I LIVE ON THE RESERVE; I

LIVE IN MY MOTHER'S HOUSE.

I GREW UP EATING BOLOGNA AND

HANGOVER SOUP.

I JUST LIKE--I REFER TO THE

TERM--I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAME

ACROSS THIS IN THE BOOK--"AAA,

ABORIGINAL ANCESTRY ASSESSORS."

AND IT'S LIKE WHAT KIND OF

CREDENTIAL, WHAT KIND OF

UNDERGRADUATE WORK DO YOU

Nam says THEY SHOULD BE TESTING YOUR

HOW PURE IS THE BLOOD?

Drew says I KNOW, I READ--I KEEP

READING ABOUT THAT, AND THAT

WOULD SCARE ME.

Nam says DOES--'CAUSE I KNOW I'VE BEEN IN

SITUATIONS WHERE PEOPLE WILL SAY

THINGS LIKE DEROGATORY THINGS

ABOUT AFRICANS.

AND THEN I'LL SAY, "WAIT A

MINUTE, I'M AFRICAN."

THEY'RE LIKE, "OH, YOU DON'T

HAVE YOU EVER FOUND YOURSELF IN

SITUATIONS LIKE...

Drew says OH, CONSTANTLY.

Nam says--KINDA LIKE A CLOAKING

DEVICE WHERE PEOPLE...

Drew says I OFTEN SAY, "I COULD BE A GREAT

UNDERCOVER AGENT FOR

THE AFN OR WHATEVER."

Nam says YEAH, WELL PEOPLE JUST HAVE TO

THINK BEYOND--LIKE, LOOK BEYOND

THE COLOUR, RIGHT?

Drew says WELL, I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE,

"EVERY OTHER CELL IS NATIVE."

BECAUSE YOU'RE HALF AND HALF.

Nam says I WANTED TO READ THIS...

Drew says BUT SOME OF MY BEST

FRIENDS ARE WHITE.

Nam says OH YEAH.

Drew says THEY'RE KIND, GENTLE

PEOPLE WITH INTERESTING

LITERATURES AND EXCELLENT

CUISINE AND HAD BEEN MALIGNED

FAR TOO LONG.

Nam says I WANTED TO READ THIS EXCERPT

'CAUSE I FOUND IT REALLY

AND YOU WRITE:

"WHILE IT IS TRUE BEING BORN

NATIVE IN THIS COUNTRY IS A

POLITICAL ACT IN ITSELF, THAT'S

ABOUT THE EXTENT OF IT FOR ME."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

Drew says WELL, BEING BORN NATIVE IN

CANADA WHETHER YOU LOOK LIKE ME

OR NOT, OFTEN TIMES WHAT YOU

DO--EVERYTHING YOU DO IS A

POLITICAL STATEMENT IN ITSELF.

WHAT YOU EAT, WHERE YOU LIVE,

WHO YOU DATE ARE ALL POLITICAL

STATEMENTS.

AND AT SOME POINT, I HAVE TO

LIKE STEP AWAY FROM THAT GOING

SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, I WANT AN

ENGLISH MUFFIN.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A

POLITICAL STATEMENT OR WHATEVER.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WEAR--I HAVE--I

HAVE TWO INDIAN MOTORCYCLE

T-SHIRTS, AND I WROTE A NOVEL

ABOUT AN INDIAN MOTORCYCLE, AND

PEOPLE COMMENT ON, YOU KNOW,

THAT "YOU REALIZE THAT'S

CULTURAL APPROPRIATION; YOU'RE

MAKING MONEY OFF OUR NAME."

AND IT'S EVEN--NOT EVEN--I'VE

GONE THROUGH THE WHOLE THING.

AND I SAY, "WELL, LOOK AT IT

THIS WAY, I'M WEARING IT

IRONICALLY," RIGHT?

NOW, LOOK--I TELL THEM,

DECONSTRUCT WHAT IRONY IS AND

DECONSTRUCT WHAT I'M DOING, AND

YOU'LL SEE THE--WHAT I'M DOING.

AND IT'S SO FUNNY, AND SO MANY

PEOPLE CAN'T ACTUALLY

DECONSTRUCT THE WORD "IRONY."

SO YES, THERE'S A LOT OF STUFF

BEING BORN NATIVE IN THIS

COUNTRY IS A POLITICAL STATEMENT

SO I OFTEN SAY, "I'M POLITICAL

BY BIRTH, NOT BY CHOICE."

SO--AND WHAT I DO, WHERE I GO,

WHAT I SAY SOMETIMES HAS

POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS WHEN

IT'S NOT INTENDED, BUT, YOU

KNOW, BEING--BEING NATIVE IN

THIS COUNTRY IS FULL OF CHOICES;

IT'S FULL OF DECISIONS; AND FULL

OF PERCEPTIONS.

Nam says WELL, I WANNA READ ANOTHER

EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK.

Drew says IF YOU MUST.

Nam says IF I MUST.

WELL, THIS IS--OK.

Another quote from the book appears on screen, under the title "Caught in-between." The quote reads "While attending an Aboriginal academic conference, I happened to be part of an informal gathering where a friend of mine, in conversation with several other scholarly Aboriginals, expressed her confusion over white people's –or those we call the Colour Challenged- die-hard refusal to accept guilt or culpability for what has happened in the five hundred and sex years of colonialism. Basically, but severely paraphrased, she said, 'when are white people going to accept their guilt for what their ancestors have done? I don't think they seriously understand their responsibility.' Somewhere deep inside me, I could feel DNA picking sides."

Drew says ALSO PIGMENT-DENIED.

Nam laughs and says PIGMENT...

Drew says NOW, THAT LAST LINE,

IT SOUNDS LIKE

IT'S TONGUE-IN-CHEEK, BUT IS

THERE A PART OF YOU THAT FEELS

LIKE YOU HAVE TO PICK A SIDE?

OH, CONSTANTLY.

THE THING WITH ME IS I GREW UP

WITH MY MOTHER AND MY MOTHER'S

FAMILY ON THE RESERVE.

I NEVER KNEW MY FATHER.

SO, I WAS RAISED CULTURALLY

OJIBWAY AND ANISHINAABE.

I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO MY WHITE

HALF OTHER THAN--OTHER THAN THE

PHYSICAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THE

BODY SITTING IN FRONT OF YOU.

SO YES, I SOMETIMES I WONDER

ABOUT THAT, BUT I--MY

ALLEGIANCE, MY KNOWLEDGE--LIKE,

I WRITE COMPLETELY INDIGENOUS

STORIES BECAUSE THAT IS THE

KNOWLEDGE I DO.

AND WHILE SOMETIMES I SIT

THERE--AS I SAID, I OFTEN SEE

BOTH SIDES OF THESE ISSUES.

The caption changes to "Picking a side."

Drew says BUT I AM WHO I AM.

BUT I DID ACTUALLY EXPLORE THIS

TOPIC IN A PLAY I WROTE CALLED

WORLD CREATED BY A DRUNKEN

WHERE IT'S A STORY OF A

MIXED-BLOOD PERSON LIKE ME

LIVING IN AN APARTMENT IN

THERE'S A KNOCK ON THE DOOR; HE

OPENS IT; AND IT'S A BROTHER HE

NEVER KNEW HE HAD WHO IS WHITE

FROM HIS FATHER WHO HAD

DISAPPEARED BEFORE HE WAS BORN.

AND THE STORY PROGRESSES WHERE

THE BROTHER HAD TRACKED HIM DOWN

BECAUSE THEIR FATHER IS DYING OF

CHRONIC RENAL FAILURE AND NEEDS

Nam says WOW.

Drew says AND SO, NOBODY IN THE IMMEDIATE

FAMILY IS ACCEPTABLE, SO THE

FATHER CONFESSED IN INFIDELITY,

TOLD THE SON.

THE SON TRACKED--DID ALL THIS

STUFF, TRACKED HIM DOWN, AND NOW

WANTS THE NATIVE BOY TO GIVE A

BLOOD SAMPLE TO SEE IF HE MIGHT

BE ABLE TO DONATE A KIDNEY.

SO, IT BECOMES THIS DISCUSSION

OF WHAT ARE YOUR

RESPONSIBILITIES?

Drew says LIKE, IF--IF YOU AND ONLY YOU

HAD THE ABILITY TO SAVE A LIFE

FOR ONLY A--A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF

DISCOMFORT, WOULDN'T YOU FEEL

OBLIGATED AS OPPOSED TO BEING

OBLIGATED TO SOMEBODY YOU HAVE

NO CONNECTION TO, WHO ABANDONED YOU.

WOULD YOU FEEL--WOULD YOU FEEL

YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT

SO, AS I SAID, I PLAY--I PLAY

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE WITH THAT, AND

I TRIED TO MAKE IT A 50-50

DISCUSSION.

Nam says DO YOU EVER HAVE ANY RESENTMENT

TO THAT OTHER SIDE OF YOU?

Drew says NO, I GET ASKED THAT, AND I

ALWAYS SAY IT'S HARD TO MISS OR

BE RESENTFUL AGAINST SOMETHING

YOU NEVER HAD.

YOU KNOW, LIFE GOES ON.

I HAD MY GRANDFATHER; I HAD--ONE

OF THE THINGS I LIKE SAYING IS I

COME FROM BOTH A BIG FAMILY AND

A SMALL FAMILY.

I COME FROM A BIG FAMILY BECAUSE

MY MOTHER WAS THE OLDEST OF 14.

WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU

DIDN'T HAVE THE INTERNET.

SO, WITH--WITH AUNTS

AND--MARRIAGES, I HAD SOMETHING

LIKE 20 OR 22 AUNTS AND UNCLES.

AND I LOST COUNT AT ABOUT 20 OR

22 FIRST COUSINS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I COME

FROM A SMALL FAMILY.

IT WAS JUST ME AND MY MOTHER.

AND MY MOTHER BLAMES THAT ON THE

FACT THAT WHEN I WAS BORN, I WAS

11 POUNDS 13 OUNCES.

Nam says YOU WERE A BIG KID.

Drew says I LIKE TO THINK BOTH QUALITY AND

Nam says I'VE HAD TWO KIDS; THAT'S A BIG

Drew says I'M TWO KIDS.

ONE GIRLFRIEND SAID, "THAT'S TWO BABIES."

Nam says THAT IS TWO BECAUSE BOTH OF MY

KIDS WERE 5 POUNDS, AND I HAD A

BUT ANYWAY, SO YOUR FRIEND IN

THAT SAME CONVERSATION WE WERE

JUST TALKING ABOUT SAID IT'S

IMPOSSIBLE FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE

OR FOR ANY MINORITY GROUP TO BE

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

Drew says OH NOW, I WROTE THAT A LONG TIME AGO.

Nam says YEAH.

Drew says AND IT'S LIKE I'VE LEARNED A LOT

SINCE THEN.

IT'S THE WHOLE CONCEPT THAT--AND

AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW HOW TRUE

I HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS WHO ARE

MY PARTNER'S ACADEMIC.

AND THIS WHOLE DECISION THAT

LIKE RACISM IS ACTUALLY A SOCIAL

AND ECONOMIC THING RATHER THAN

AN ACTUAL RACIAL THING.

IT'S LIKE--YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE

THINGS I LEARNED ABOUT HUMOUR IS

RACISM WORKS FROM THE TOP DOWN,

YOU KNOW, THE POWER STRUGGLE, A

WHEREAS, COMEDY USUALLY WORKS

FROM THE BOTTOM UP.

I CAN--I OR PEOPLE OF A LOWER

SOCIAL ECONOMIC GROUP CAN MAKE

FUN OF THOSE HIGHER UP THAN US,

HIGHER UP THE SOCIAL POLITICAL

Nam says THE PEOPLE IN POWER.

Drew says EXACTLY.

Drew says WHEREAS, THEY CANNOT MAKE FUN OF

PEOPLE BELOW THEM BECAUSE THAT'S

SO--OR IF IT IS SO-CALLED

SO, THE VIEW OF RACISM IS SORT

OF--IT GOT REALLY KIND OF

INTERESTING BECAUSE AGAIN AS I

SAID, IT'S MORE OF AN ECONOMIC

OR A SOCIOPOLITICAL THING THAN

BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, I DO

KNOW PEOPLE WHO JUST HATE ONE

RACE, HATES ANOTHER RACE BECAUSE

OF THAT RACE.

SO, IT IS A VERY, VERY MURKY

Nam says AND ONE OF THE ESSAYS ALSO

TOUCHES ON THE POLITICS OF

INTERRACIAL DATING.

Drew says OH YEAH.

Nam says IS THAT STILL A TABOO IN

The caption changes to "Colour-blind love?"

Drew says NOT REALLY.

I MEAN, I'M A PRODUCT OF THAT.

AND NO, NOT SO MUCH ANYMORE.

I MEAN, THEY STILL HEAR ABOUT

STUFF ABOUT--I HAD A FRIEND WHO

WAS DATING A NATIVE--SOMEBODY

WAS HALF DATING A NATIVE WOMAN

WHO THEN THE NATIVE WOMEN BROKE

UP WITH HIM BECAUSE SHE WANTED

TO HAVE COMPLETELY NATIVE

CHILDREN WHICH, YOU KNOW,

TO HELP PRESERVE THE BLOODLINES,

THAT KIND OF THING.

THAT SOMETIMES HAPPENS.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S AS MUCH

AN ISSUE ANYMORE AS IT ONCE WAS.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT ALL

THAT WHOLE THING IS HOW--WHAT I

FIND REALLY INTERESTING, HAVING

TRAVELLED THE WORLD, RIGHT--I'VE

BEEN--I SPENT SOME TIME IN

I SPENT SOME--A LOT OF TIME IN

INDIA, AND--AND PLACES LIKE

MEXICO AND STUFF LIKE THAT,

WHERE THERE'S THIS BIG--NOT

INTEREST, THERE'S THIS BIG, I

GUESS INTEREST, IN TERMS OF

INDIGENOUS PEOPLE

LOOKING--TRYING TO LOOK AT

LIGHT-SKINNED AS POSSIBLE.

YOU GO TO INDIA, ALL THE BIG

BOLLYWOOD STARS ARE

LIGHT-SKINNED.

YOU GO TO A LOT OF THE RESORTS,

THEY HAVE WHITENING CREAMS IN

THE BATHROOMS.

Nam says YEAH, THAT CAUSE CANCER.

Drew says YOU CAN GO TO--YOU CAN GO TO A

SPA AND HAVE A WHITENING THING.

AND YET AS--AS CANADIAN NATIVE

PEOPLE AND GOING TO THESE

PLACES--WE'RE GOING TO THE BEACH

TRYING TO GET AS DARK AS

SAME IN MEXICO, RIGHT, 'CAUSE

ALL THE BIG MEXICAN STARS ARE

USUALLY FAIR-SKINNED.

SO, I ALWAYS FOUND THAT REALLY

AND WORKING ON SOMETHING--YOU

KNOW, I USED TO WRITE

NORTH OF 60.

AND ALL MY FRIENDS WERE NATIVE

AND I WOULD GO--THEY WOULD

INVITE ME TO GO OUT TO

I WOULD GO TO THESE AUDITIONS

AND I WOULD SHOW UP TO AUDITION

FOR THE ROLE OF A 16TH CENTURY

MOHAWK WARRIOR GOING--LOOKING

Nam says AND THEY'RE LIKE, "WHO?"

Drew says AND...

Nam says "YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PLACE, BUDDY."

Drew says AND SO YEAH, IT USED TO--THERE'S

A FLIP SIDE HERE.

IN THE NATIVE--IN NATIVE ARTS,

THE DARKER YOU ARE WAS BETTER, RIGHT?

SO, I GAVE UP WANTING TO BE AN

ACTOR AND DECIDED I'LL DO THE

WRITER THING.

Nam says AND SO, ONE--ANOTHER TOPIC THAT

YOU TOUCHED IN THE ESSAY, YOU

WERE ON A RADIO SHOW, AT A RADIO

SHOW, AND THE HOST SAID TO YOU,

"WHY IS IT THAT NATIVE MEN"...

Drew says "WHY IT IS ALL NATIVE MEN WHEN

THEY REACH A CERTAIN LEVEL"...

Nam says "WHEN THEY REACH

A CERTAIN LEVEL"...

Drew says "OF SUCCESS AND AFFLUENCE

ALWAYS END UP DATING AND

MARRYING WHITE WOMEN?"

Nam says "WHITE WOMEN, YEAH.

I MEAN, IN THE BLACK CULTURE

TOO, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASKED THE

SAME QUESTION.

IS THAT A VALID QUESTION OR...

Drew says WELL, I GUESS IT IS.

Drew says YOU LOOK AT--YEAH, I'D HAVE TO

SAY IT IS A VALID QUESTION.

AND OF COURSE, LIKE, THIS IS ON

LIVE RADIO AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I

AM NOW RESPONSIBLE FOR SPEAKING

FOR ALL NATIVE MEN IN CANADA.

AND I STARTED LIKE HEMMING AND

HAWING 'CAUSE I'M TAKEN--I'M OFF

I'VE GOT MY CUP OF COFFEE HERE;

I'VE JUST GOTTEN OFF THE PLANE.

AND I STARTED DOING THIS--AGAIN,

THE SOCIALLY ECONOMIC THING

ABOUT, "WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE

ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL WHITE PEOPLE

THAN NATIVE PEOPLE AND MORE

SUCCESSFUL, I GUESS, NATIVE MEN

THAN NATIVE WOMEN, AND YOU

ALWAYS TEND TO END UP DATING

PEOPLE IN YOUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC

AND I JUST GOT REALLY, REALLY

AND SAID, "OR IT COULD BE WHITE

WOMEN ARE JUST EASIER TO FIND IN

AND I JUST REMEMBER--JUST

STARTED TO LOOK AT ME, AND I

JUST SORT OF WENT ON AND TALKED

ABOUT--BUT ONE THING--BUT ONE

THING YOU REALLY HAVE TO

Nam says UH-HUH.

Drew says IS YOU NEVER DATE A WHITE

PERSON AFTER LABOUR DAY.

'CAUSE IT'S NOT EN VOGUE.

Nam laughs.

Drew says IT'S JUST NOT DONE.

Nam says I DON'T KNOW WHY--I FEEL BAD

ABOUT LAUGHING AT THAT JOKE.

Drew says BUT WE CAN LAUGH AT IT

'CAUSE--'CAUSE WE'RE OPPRESSED.

Nam says WELL, YOU ALSO WRESTLE WITH THE

NOTION THAT BEING SUCCESSFUL AND

BEING INDIGENOUS ARE

INCOMPATIBLE.

IS THAT TRUE?

WHY IS THAT?

Drew says OH NO.

DID I SAY THAT?

Nam says YEAH, IN ONE OF THE ESSAYS.

OH AGAIN, THAT WAS 15 YEARS AGO.

Drew says IT DEPENDS ON YOUR DEFINITION OF SUCCESS.

Drew says YOU KNOW, THIS COMING FALL MY

29TH BOOK COMES OUT.

Nam says WOW, CONGRATULATIONS.

Drew says AND I HAVE LECTURED IN ABOUT

18, 19 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD

ABOUT NATIVE THEATRE, NATIVE

SEXUALITY, NATIVE ARTS, NATIVE

IDENTITY, NATIVE HUMOUR.

ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS.

SO, I THINK I'VE REACHED A

CERTAIN LEVEL OF SUCCESS.

I REMEMBER--OK, IT'S COMING BACK

'CAUSE THERE WAS A WHOLE BUNCH

OF DIFFERENT TOPICS ABOUT THAT.

THERE WAS A PERSON WHO ONCE SAID

BACK IN THE, I THINK IT WAS '70S

OR '80S THAT IF YOU HAVE TO BE

POOR--IF YOU HAVE TO--WHO IS

VERY--WHO HAD REACHED A CERTAIN

LEVEL OF AGAIN SUCCESS AND

AFFLUENCE WHO HAD SAID, "IF IN

ORDER TO BE INDIAN, I HAVE TO BE

POOR, THEN I DON'T SEE THE POINT

IN BEING INDIAN."

AND I REMEMBER TALKING WITH THE

WOMAN ON MY RESERVE WHO

BASICALLY--WHEN I WAS TALKING

ABOUT, UM, SOMEBODY WHO HAD

SAID--I THINK IT WAS THE ESSAY

WHERE I TALKED ABOUT THIS

MIDDLE-CLASS, WHITE,

WELL-EDUCATED WOMAN THAT HAD A

PROBLEM WITH ONE OF THE JOKES IN

A WHOLE BUNCH OF RESPONSES FROM

EDUCATED ACADEMICALLY INCLINED

NATIVE WOMEN TO COMBAT THIS.

AND MY FRIEND BASICALLY SAID,

YOU KNOW, "REAL NATIVE PEOPLE

CAN'T UNDERSTAND THIS--ALL THIS

WEIRD FUNNY TALK ABOUT THIS

AND REAL NATIVE PEOPLE JUST

ARE--YOU KNOW, ARE ACCUSTOMED TO

WORKING WITHIN THE COMMUNITY,

WORKING WITHIN THE LAND, DEALING

WITH ISSUES.

NOT WITH ALL THIS HIGHFALUTIN

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT I WAS

SORT OF TALKING ABOUT.

BUT I THINK THAT PERCEPTION HAS

NOW OFFICIALLY--DOESN'T EXIST.

I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT THE SUCCESS

OF THE INSPIRE AWARDS, WHAT USED

TO BE THE CANADIAN NATIVE ARTS

FOUNDATION.

EDUCATION HAS OFTEN BEEN

REFERRED TO AS THE NEW BUFFALO.

IT IS WHAT IS GOING TO

SURVIVE--WHAT IS GOING TO ALLOW

OUR PEOPLE TO SURVIVE INTO THE

NEXT CENTURY.

IN FACT, I THINK IT WAS MURRAY

SINCLAIR WHO SAID ABOUT THE TRC

AND THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.

HE SAID, "IT WAS EDUCATION THAT

GOT US INTO THIS MESS, AND IT'S

EDUCATION THAT'S GOING TO GET US

OUT OF THIS MESS."

Nam says SO, I WANNA FINISH THE

CONVERSATION OFF BY ASKING YOU

WHETHER YOU'VE NOTICED A GROWING

SENSE OF PRIDE IN NOT ONLY BEING

ABORIGINAL BUT RESPECT FOR

PEOPLE OF ABORIGINAL DESCENT IN

The caption changes to "tvo.org/current-affairs"

Drew says OH, I THINK SO.

I THINK THE MOVEMENT HAS BEEN

ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.

LOOK AT THE SUCCESS OF THE IDLE

OUT OF--OUT OF--I AM GOING--I

WAS GONNA SAY OUT OF NOWHERE;

THAT'S INACCURATE, BUT THE

SUDDEN EXPLOSION OF ABORIGINAL

I PARTICIPATED IN A ROUND DANCE

ON YONGE AND DUNDAS HERE IN

TORONTO, AT VARIOUS MALLS IN

PETERBOROUGH, ALL OVER THE

SEEING THAT KIND OF THING,

MOMENTARY, A FLASH--A FLASH

ROUND DANCE, ENOUGH TO GET

PEOPLE'S ATTENTION BUT NOT

REALLY CAUSING THAT MUCH

DISRUPTION, I THINK WAS

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT, AND IT

SORT OF HAS WAKENED UP THE

CANADIAN POPULATION TO SOME OF

THESE ISSUES.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING THAT

I FIND SO PROGRESSIVE--I'VE BEEN

TO AUSTRALIA A COUPLE OF TIMES

AND 10 YEARS AGO, 15 YEARS AGO

WHEN I WAS ONCE THERE, I WAS AT

AN INTERNATIONAL THEATRE

AND EVERY MEETING THEY STARTED

UP--THEY STARTED EACH MEETING BY

THANKING THE ABORIGINE NATION

TRIBE ON WHOSE LAND THE

CONFERENCE WAS TAKING PLACE ON.

AND I WAS SITTING THERE GOING,

"WOW, THAT'S INTERESTING; THAT'S

PROGRESSIVE.

GOOD FOR YOU."

AND I REMEMBER WRITING AN

ARTICLE ABOUT THAT.

AND I CAME BACK, AND NOW

EVERYBODY DOES IT.

EVERYWHERE.

I WAS AT SOME FUNCTION

YESTERDAY--I FORGET WHERE I WAS

YESTERDAY, BUT OUT OF HAVING

NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIVE ISSUES

OR WHATEVER, SUDDENLY SOMEBODY

JUST GOT--THE PERSON RUNNING IT

GOT UP AND TALKED ABOUT, YOU

KNOW, "FIRST OF ALL I'D LIKE TO

THANK THE HAUDENOSAUNEE, THE

MISSISSAUGAS CREDIT ON

WHOSE LAND--TRADITIONAL

LAND WE NOW STAND."

AND I JUST--TEN YEARS AGO THAT

WAS UNHEARD OF.

NOW, IT'S--WHAT'S THE TERM?

DE RIGUEUR?

AND I JUST THOUGHT, "NOW THAT'S

Nam says FANTASTIC.

IT'S BEEN SUCH A PLEASURE

SPEAKING TO YOU.

Drew says OH, YOU SAY THAT TO ALL

YOUR GUESTS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81"

Nam says WELL I DO.

JUST TO YOU.

BUT YOU'RE GONNA BE BACK

Drew says I'M ALL AQUIVER.

Episode: Observations from a Blue-Eyed Ojibway

• Arts & Humanities

Pretty Like a White boy and questions

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